Graves Family Bulletin, Vol. 17, No. 7

GRAVES FAMILY BULLETIN

Vol. 17, No. 7, Sept. 28, 2015

A Free, Occasional, Online Summary of Items of Interest to Descendants of all Families of Graves, Greaves, Grieves, Grave, and other spelling variations Worldwide

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CONTENTS

** General Comments

** Graves and Greaves Families of Yorkshire, England

** A Probable Yorkshire Family in New England

**Ancestry of John Graves Who Married Martha Mitton

** Difficulty of Finding Ancestry of and Connections Between Early Families in England

** Updates to the GFA Website

** Remains of Early Leaders Found in Jamestown, Virginia

** New Discoveries Could Explain What Happened to the Lost Colony of Roanoke

** The Importance and Increasing Use of Genetic Genealogy

** To Submit Material to this Bulletin & Other Things

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GENERAL COMMENTS

This issue of the GF Bulletin is way behind my desired schedule, since I have been trying to squeeze it between some of my other responsibilities and activities. There are several articles on the subject of families in or from Yorkshire, England, a couple of articles about early archaeological discoveries in Virginia and North Carolina, and some discussion of the importance of doing Y-DNA SNP testing. I hope you find some items of help and interest.

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GRAVES AND GREAVES FAMILIES OF YORKSHIRE, ENGLAND

This article is about Yorkshire families, but similar articles could be written about families from other places in the British Isles and elsewhere. Yorkshire was selected because of a question that Bill Graves (in the next article) asked.

The easiest way to see which Yorkshire families have members who have done Y-DNA testing is to go to the master table of all Y-DNA test results. You can reach that from the Family Tree DNA website, or from the GFA website by clicking on the Y-DNA link on the DNA drop-down tab at the top of each page and then clicking on the "Y-DNA Test Results on FTDNA Website" link, or you can just click here. On the master table of Y-DNA results, search for Yorkshire. When I do that, I find results for the following genealogies. The birth date on the right is for the earliest known ancestor.

68, Graves family of Yorkshire & Mickleton Manor, Glous., b. 1460

70, Richard Greaves, b. 1560

113, William Graves of Yorkshire, b. 1714

185, John William Graves, b. 1825

197, Ralph Greaves, b. 1505

316, Thomas Greaves, b. 1650

336, Peter Greaves, b. 1570

768, George F. Greaves, b. 1826

886, Thomas Greaves, b. 1590

If you want to find all the Yorkshire families for which genealogies have been created, you can look at the Numerical Index page on the GFA website and search for Yorkshire in all genealogies. When I did that, I found those in the following table. The genealogies in the following list with an asterisk are those that have one or more Y-DNA tests.

It can be seen that only 9 of these 43 genealogies have had a male descendant take a Y-DNA test. Without that, there is no way to tell which of these genealogies are related to others, and whether you are possibly descended from one of them. For other areas of England, this low percentage of testing is also fairly typical. A very worthwhile project for Graves and Greaves descendants of families from Britain would be to locate more descendants of these families in Britain and get them to take a Y-DNA test. And this needs to be done not just for Yorkshire families.

Gen.	Name of Genealogy	Birth
33	Matthew Greaves and Isabel Burton of Hampsthwaite, Yorkshire, England	1623
* 68	Graves Family of Yorkshire and Mickleton Manor, Gloucestershire, England	1460
* 70	Richard Greaves of Bradfield, Yorkshire & Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England	1560
109	Jonah Graves and Elizabeth ------ of Cumberland & Yorkshire, England	1810
112	William Greaves of Ecclesfield, Yorkshire, England	1730
* 113	William Graves and Elizabeth Pinkerton of Yorkshire, England	1714
114	William Greaves and Sarah Burland of Pontefract, Yorkshire, England	1770
* 185	John William Greaves and Sarah May of Leeds, Yorkshire, England	1825
* 197	Ralph Greaves of Sheffield, Yorkshire, England	1505
216	William Greaves of Sheffield, Yorkshire, England	1720
225	Charles Graves and Mary ------ of Yorkshire, England	1794
243	Robert Greaves and Charlotte Green of Bradfield, Yorkshire, England	1818
* 316	Thomas Greaves and Martha ------ of Holmfirth, Yorkshire, England	1650
322	Mary Ellen Greaves and Ephraim Teal of West Yorkshire, England	1825
326	William Greaves and Jane Green of Rotherham, Yorkshire	1750
331	Robert Graves and Mary ------ of Deighton and Skelton, Yorkshire, England	1771
* 336	Peter Greaves and Elizabeth Hargrave of Greenhill, Norton, South Yorkshire, England	1570
514	George Greaves and Ann ------ of Birstall, Yorkshire, England	1801
517	William Graves and Beatrice Cocking of Bentley, Yorkshire, England	1625
542	George Greaves and Elizabeth Stogdale of Howden & Eastrington, Yorkshire, England	1794
563	Benjamin Greaves and Mary Brammer of Rotherham, Yorkshire, England	1791
567	Watson Graves and Mary Yasker of Hayton, Bubwith & Howden, Yorkshire, England	1770
652	Richard Graves of Eastrington, Yorkshire, England	1730
660	Joseph Greaves of Leeds, West Yorkshire, England, New Bedford, MA & Providence, RI	1871
744	Daniel Greeves and Rosa ------ of Ireland & York, Yorkshire, England	1802
757	John Grave of Thorne, Yorkshire & Kings Lynn, Norfolk, England	1480
758	William Grave and Elizabeth ------ of Thorganby & Cottingwith, Yorkshire, England	1520
759	Richard Grave and Isabel ------ of Lilling, Yorkshire, England, and Possible Ancestry	1480
* 768	George F. Greaves and Caroline Matilda Bandy of Yorkshire, England & Wichita, KS	1826
815	Anne Greaves and George Parker of Ecclesfield & Sheffield, Yorkshire, England	1808
822	James Graves and Mary Birkin of Yorkshire, England & Australia	1826
866	John Greaves and Rebecca Stead of Methley, West Yorkshire, England	1775
867	Thomas Greaves and Mary Leesing of Hull, Yorkshire/Humberside, England	1840
* 886	Thomas Greaves of Kirkby Overblow or Spofforth, North Yorkshire, England	1590
913	George Greaves and Mary Ann ------ of Saddleworth, Yorkshire, England	1791
925	Henry Grave of Swillington, Yorkshire, England	1520
946	Nathaniel Greaves of Eccleshill, Bradford, Yorkshire, England	1772
947	Joseph Greaves and Martha Jowett of Bradford, Yorkshire, England	1754
948	Joseph Greaves and Grace Hargreaves of Rawdon, Leeds, Yorkshire, England	1799
964	Jervas Greaves and Elizabeth Chapman of Sheffield, Yorkshire, England	1683
973	Richard Greaves and Elizabeth ------ of Spofforth, Yorkshire, England	1640
978	Francis Greaves and Susannah Hasland of Harthill, Yorkshire, England	1600
981	Robert Graves and Margaret Hall of Thorne, Yorkshire & Crowle, Lincolnshire, England	1705

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A PROBABLE YORKSHIRE FAMILY IN NEW ENGLAND

Mr. William H. (“Bill”) Graves, is descended from genealogy 208 (John Graves and Susanna ‑‑‑‑‑‑ of VT). He (like his father before him) has searched for his earlier Graves ancestry for a long time.

The start of gen. 208 states: “John Graves (1) was born about 1782, probably in Vermont, but possibly in Connecticut or Massachusetts (or even in England), and died in North Bennington, VT on 22 April 1819. This is probably the John Graves who was living in Rupert, VT in 1800, and he may be connected with Jonathan Graves of Rupert. John married Susanna ------- (possibly Ames, Hames, or Holmes) in about 1800. Susanna was born about 1782, probably in Bennington Co., VT, and she probably is the Susanna Graves whose death is noted in the Shaftsbury Baptist Church records in 1831. (According to a family history passed down by Lucy Graves Vieley, John was married before and may have had a son by a previous marriage.) What is known for certain is that John was “of Shaftsbury” when he bought land in Bennington County, VT on 3 December 1805. On that date he purchased a ¾ acre lot in North Bennington on the road leading west to White Creek, NY for $60.41 from Daniel Rogers of Hoosick, NY. (This lot is approximately where the present School and West Streets intersect in today’s North Bennington.) The family probably lived and worked on the home property, conducting a carpentry and wagon making business from a workshop, weaving woolen cloth, making shoes and growing a portion of their own food. The census of 1810 of Bennington County lists John Graves (male 26-44) with 2 sons under 10, a wife also 26-44, and a daughter under 10. John died intestate and insolvent on 22 April 1819, and a complete inventory of his estate is found in the Bennington County Probate Court proceedings of 5 May 1819.”

On page 72 of the Graves Family Newsletter of June 1982 was a query from Mrs. George W. Bard of Boone, NC, who wrote that her husband is descended from Abram Graves of New England as follows: (1) Abram, m. Mary ------, (2) John, b. 18 Nov. 1752, m. Lucy Winchell (b. 19 Jan. 1753, dau. of Benjamin Winchell and Lucy ------), (3) Frances Graves, b. 17 April 1777 (apparently this should be 1797), d. 8 Sept. 1870, Schuyler Falls, Clinton Co., NY, m. 16 May 1813, Phineas Hare (or Haire) (b. 12 Dec. 1789, d. 7 Nov. 1867, Schuyler Falls, NY, son of David Hare or Haire and Avis ------), etc.

Bill Graves wrote earlier this year: “Frances Graves Hare (or Hair) … was born June 17, 1797 in Westfield, Mass. (VR Westfield) and was the younger sister of John Graves, Jr. born 1783.” “It now appears my ancestor John Graves was the son of the John Graves who lived in Westfield, Mass. in the 1770-1800 period. According to the Hare genealogy, he (the older John Graves) was the son of Abraham Graves and Mary Kay of York, England. There is a record of John Graves' christening in York in 1752. And another Hare query indicates John Graves was a British soldier before the Revolution. I have found mention of him in Southwick (Massachusetts) in 1772, making the British soldier claim possible but not likely.”

More recently, Bill wrote: “It seems there were at least three Graves families in the city of York in the 1750-1800 period. I won't pretend to have them all sorted out, but there are parish records for John Graves dating to 1752, his father Abraham Graves, mother Mary Kay and numerous other family members. So far it seems there were families headed by Richard Graves, Joseph Graves and Abraham, with much duplication of names. How they are all related is still a mystery. I don't think very many of these people found their way to the United States. And there is a possibility that only one, John Graves, did. I am looking into his leaving England hurriedly because he was about to be conscripted into the army. Thus far all the information I've found agrees with stories my father told me about an ancestor who came from a seafaring family and being smuggled out of England on the eve of the Revolution.”

He also wondered whether there might be a relationship between his Graves ancestors and those who lived in Snaith, about 21 miles south of York. The Graves families that lived in Snaith were genealogy 113, 114, and possibly 331. Only gen. 113 has had a single male descendant take a Y-DNA test, and he is in haplogroup R, whereas Bill’s test for gen. 208 is in haplogroup I, so the genealogies are not related unless one or both tests are not representative of the Graves ancestor. Testing of additional descendants of both families should be done to rule out that possibility.

Can anyone help?

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ANCESTRY OF JOHN GRAVES WHO MARRIED MARTHA MITTON

Because Bill Graves (in the preceding article) was looking for a Graves family in St. Mary’s, Castlegate, York, I did a search and found only one mention in the GFA genealogies. That was a footnote in genealogy 517, which cited the marriage of a William Graves to Bettrice Rusby on 3 Feb. 1641 at Saint Mary Castlegate, York, Yorkshire.

That called my attention to the listing of John Graves who married Martha Mitton in two different genealogies, 241 and 517 (in the preceding Yorkshire listing). They are clearly the same John Graves in both genealogies, but the genealogies do not agree regarding the marriage of their daughter Martha. Gen. 241 says Martha married Philip Kneeland in 1709, and gen. 517 says she married John Price in 1702. Which is correct?

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DIFFICULTY OF FINDING ANCESTRY OF AND CONNECTIONS BETWEEN EARLY FAMILIES IN ENGLAND

THE PROBLEM

This article discusses recent efforts to use Y-DNA testing to find and verify Greaves ancestry, and some of the difficulties and limitations in the process. The example is for a Yorkshire family that has been believed to descend from the Greaves family of Beeley, Derbyshire (genealogy 228), but similar difficulties may apply to all families, especially when the shared ancestor is many generations in the past.

Ted Greaves of Sheffield, England, descended from Francis Greaves and Susannah Hasland of Harthill, Yorkshire (genealogy 978) recently took a 37-marker Y-DNA test. With the entire FTDNA database searched, the results showed one match with a Church at 37 markers, and 67 matches with various surnames at 25 markers, but no match with a Greaves at 37, 25 or 12 markers. At 12 markers there were 2 matches with Graves surnames (out of about 1,000 total matches), but those matches are not meaningful, especially since they are from 2 non-matching Graves lines. The questions are: How can it be that there were no Greaves matches? What does it mean? What can be done about it?

SOME EXPLANATIONS AND SUGGESTIONS FOR ACTION

I attribute the lack of matches to other Greaves descendants to not enough men being tested, and the possibility that the connections may be so far back on the Greaves tree that more mutations have occurred than are allowed for in the matching algorithm. Francis Greaves of genealogy 978 was born about 1600 (11 generations back from Ted), and John Greaves of genealogy 228 was born about 1490 (with 16 generations in that genealogy). Of course there is always the possibility of descent from another Greaves family (other than genealogy 228, the Beeley family), or a non-Greaves man fathering one of the sons in your line, but the present results do not warrant that conclusion.

Part of the problem is the limitations of Y-DNA testing and testing of STRs in particular, as discussed in the next section of this article. My suggestions for actions that should be taken are:

• Genealogy 978 should be researched more thoroughly to find more descendants.

o The first 4 generations of genealogy 978 only list one son each. There were probably other children in each generation, and it would be helpful to try to find who they were and add them and their descendants to the genealogy.

o Even in later generations, where more children are known, the descendants of most of those children aren't traced. They should be researched and added also.

• Genealogy 228 needs to be researched and made much more complete also. This is believed to be the ancestral Greaves family of the majority of Graves and Greaves families originating in England, and very little research has been done to find descendants. There are only a total of 466 descendants in the entire genealogy.

• It would definitely be helpful to get at least one more male Greaves descendant to take a Y-DNA test.

• Getting one male Greaves or Graves descendant of each family of interest to take the Big Y test at Family Tree DNA (FTDNA), followed up with analysis of those results, would be helpful. This test identifies SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) that give a much better identification of ancestry than the STRs (short tandem repeats) that are identified in the standard Y-DNA test (e.g., the Y-DNA 37 marker test).

• In the future, an autosomal DNA test or a more sophisticated Y-DNA test (such as Big Y) might be helpful, but its value is limited at this time.

• Interested researchers should contact Greaves descendants whose ancestors lived in the same areas as their Greaves ancestors to share their genealogical information and ask them to take a Y-DNA test. Local societies in the U.K., genealogy websites, as well as some of the events the Guild of One-Name Studies conducts, could be helpful. Then, of course, there is the annual Who Do Think You Are Live conference (now in Birmingham since it outgrew the London facility).

EXAMPLE OF LIMITATIONS OF STR TESTING

About 15 years ago, Family Tree DNA began offering genetic testing of the Y-chromosome, which used the measurement of the number of repeats of short sequences of DNA at selected locations. These repeating sequences were called STRs (single nucleotide polymorphisms). Initially 12 locations on the Y-chromosome were included, and the maximum number of locations is now 111, which allows more precise matching.

There are several potential problems with using STRs to prove ancestry and relationships.

• The DNA segments can mutate at different rates from segment to segments and between individuals. We can (and have) measured average rates of mutation, but mutations for any individual can vary greatly from that average.

• Occasionally STR matches may not be true matches, that is, the numbers may be the same because of random chance rather than ancestry. However, doing SNP testing can confirm that there is a true match. This is not generally a problem when the people showing as a match have the same surname, but it can be.

• Because of the desire to be sure that matches are true matches, and generally within the time period of the existence of surnames, limits are set on how close STR matches must be to count as matches. The limits seem to be a genetic difference of 10 for 111 markers, 10 for 67 markers, 4 for 37 markers, 2 for 25 markers, and 1 for 12 markers.

Some of the best research we have has been with my own genealogy 270, which is part of Y-DNA genealogy group R1-047. The following table shows the matches for 3 men who all tested at 111 markers

MATCHES TO MEN IN GENEALOGY GROUP R1-047

ID Number	Genealogy	Total in Group	Markers	Genetic Distance	Matches in Group	Matches out of Group
1620	270	45	111	All	0	0
			67	All	2	0
			37	All	3	0
			25	0	21	0
				1	16	8
				2	3	91
1370	270	45	111	All	0	0
			67	All	2	0
			37	All	3	0
			25	0	5	0
				1	24	6
				2	8	43
76150	47	45	111	All	6	0
			67	All	12	0
			37	All	1	0
			25	0	0	0
				1	0	0
				2	22	0

Although there are 10 tests at 111 markers, the best any of these 3 men did was match 6 of those 10, and 2 matched none. Of the 21 tests of at least 67 markers, the best was 12, and the other 2 had only 2 matches. Of the 36 tests of at least 37 markers, the best was 3 matches. Although there were many more matches at 25 markers, those out of the group generally far outnumbers those within the group, making it much more difficult to rely on 25 markers for matches.

My conclusion is that finding matches with the standard STR test may be very difficult (or even impossible) when very few related men have tested, especially when the connection may be in the 1600s or before. It can also be seen (even in this small collection of tests) that results can vary greatly between individuals. SNP testing should give a definite match for all those related within the genealogical time (the time when surnames were used), but it does require that everyone who might be related does the necessary testing.

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UPDATES TO THE GFA WEBSITE

Here is the list of revised and new pages on the GFA website since the last GF Bulletin.

New genealogies:

• Gen. 543, Thomas Greaves and Sarah Clarke of Buckinghamshire & Northamptonshire, England

• Gen. 577, James Greaves and Marion Smith of Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland

Revised genealogies:

• Gen. 13, William Graves and Elizabeth ------ of VA, NC, TN & KY

• Gen. 85, Thomas Graves of New Castle Co., DE

• Gen. 94, William Graves and Sarah Fisher of Culpeper Co., VA and KY

• Gen. 166, John Graves of Concord, MA

• Gen. 214, Joel Graves of NY

• Gen. 241, John Graves and Martha Mitton of Falmouth, ME & Little Compton, RI

• Gen. 270, John Graves/Greaves of Northamptonshire, England & Virginia (this update has an added generation at the end)

• Gen. 506, William Graves and Elizabeth Donnelson of NY & Lenawee Co., MI

• Gen. 517, William Graves and Beatrice ------ of Bentley, Yorkshire, England